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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
2647
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Posted - 2015.08.17 12:23:18 -
[1] - Quote
Progression has worked so well for making players stick with a game for longer that even instant gratification games like COD and BF have adopted level systems.
So eve is a game that can keep all players with skill and socialization, but also keeps players with progression.
Win win.
What is the non-interactivity you refer to?
What is the n+1 sp+1 problem?
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
2649
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Posted - 2015.08.21 18:13:17 -
[2] - Quote
Dror wrote:Daichi Yamato wrote:Progression has worked so well for making players stick with a game for longer that even instant gratification games like COD and BF have adopted level systems. Is there literally any evidence for this? CoD doesn't promote staying with one game, but each iteration has some 300-700k concurrent on one platform.
Are you being deliberately ignorant?
Progression mechanics have become widespread across just about every genre of game there is. FPS, Strategy, Racing, fighting games etc etc. Which iteration of CoD or BF4 players play is irrelevant. They play games with progression mechanics, and CoD itself, the most played FPS of all time, was relatively unfamous until it adopted a leveling system.
The progression is the challenge that you refer to and the fantasy of big ships you also refer to, becomes quickly unspectacular when you can fly them out the box (40% of players leave once they have 'leveled up their raven'). Taking something basic and permeable enough to consider your own, like a new character, and growing with it during a game is challenging, immersive and rewarding. You've taken someones work, and applied it with a narrow mind.
The way EVE works does not mean you are hopelessly out matched when you are new. Having loads of SP does not make you excellent at PvP and having little SP does not make you poor at PvP. The sandbox maintains that friends give you more power than SP and the fact that every skill is capped at level 5 means that new players can become just as powerful as 10 year vets in certain ships quick enough.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
2659
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Posted - 2015.08.27 00:58:58 -
[3] - Quote
Aerasia wrote:Quote:The way EVE works does not mean you are hopelessly out matched when you are new. Having loads of SP does not make you excellent at PvP and having little SP does not make you poor at PvP. Yes it does. You are fantastically, insurmountably, unbelievably outmatched when you've got low SP. Don't make the mistake of confusing "hanging out with people who have SP" for having SP yourself.
12 one month old chars will easily out match one 12 month old char in almost any situation.
You dont need sp, you need friends.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
2662
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Posted - 2015.08.27 12:47:47 -
[4] - Quote
Aerasia wrote:Daichi Yamato wrote:12 one month old chars will easily out match one 12 month old char in almost any situation. Except combat.
Lol
You realise that Mr Duffo has less SP than several chars he kills in that vid right? What happened there was a fit designed to hard counter a frig/dessie gang did its job such that even opponents with more SP were taken down. Thanks for proving my point.
Then just yesterday the same guy loses against a char younger than him and in a ship his own should counter. Look through his loss history for more solo losses against chars much younger than himself.
2008 vagabond dies to a bunch of 2014/2015 chars
6mth vs 12mth
And so on...
And its not like im digging deep for these kills...
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
2664
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Posted - 2015.08.27 15:09:02 -
[5] - Quote
Lopsided fight? You mean like friends, superior piloting or a better fit? Well thats terrible. Most of the players in that fight were capable od flying a cruiser and bc. Imagine how that fight would have went if they had chosen not to fly frigs and dessies. And lets remember, duffo didn't hold the field. He had to bail.
-Your proposal Is that sp be removed, but clearly thats not necessary.
-The op's proposal is that new players start with 35mil sp, but clearly thats not necessary.
-Building something, like a char, from a low and basic level clearly has mass appeal.
-Sp/hour system is better than a grind system in particular for eve as eve has a large population of mature players with fulltime jobs and family.
Im not denying that new players could do with an extra boost to sp and I have posted that else where. In fact it makes sense to me that with an ever aging population, New players gradually get more and more starting sp. But the notion that new players must have 35mil sp or even wait 3-4 months before CONTRIBUTING to a fight is false.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
2688
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Posted - 2015.09.12 13:11:57 -
[6] - Quote
Dror wrote:SP reduces gameplay -- the amount of content -- which is the main criticism with the game.
The 'content' most people are complaining about has nothing to do with sp and is mostly complained about by vets. The content noobs are complaining about that they cant get into because they dont have the sp is not actually out of their reach.
There are bigger criticisms to the game than sp. If you truly think that the degree of a 'problem' is defined by the amount of people whining about it then get in line after; ganking, wardecs, afk cloaking, jump drive nerfs, fozzie sov, the toxic playerbase, the detached dev team, jita scams, plex prices etc etc
Whining =/= problem
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
2690
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Posted - 2015.09.12 15:32:43 -
[7] - Quote
Dror wrote:
There can't be one without the other with EvE, though. Either SP reduces the amount of gameplay per character, which effects the whole game, or it effects nothing.
Sp does effect gameplay. But that in no way means that lack of sp means you are denied content. At worst it means you need to change your approach to content to manage its difficulty,
thanks to the nature of the sandbox, the potential of unlimited allies and the ability to pick the brains of older players high level content is still accessible by anyone at any level.
If your complaint is that its too hard to do higher level content solo and early on in the game then thats not as detrimental to the game experience as you are trying to make out and the players leaving because of that are not a significant amount. More leave from decs, ganking, afk cloaking and fozziesov etc.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
2690
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Posted - 2015.09.12 16:04:30 -
[8] - Quote
So what are you saying? People are leaving the game because they cant use a bastion module On day one?
There is lower level content for everything you've mentioned. T1 modules and ships. Low level industry and research. The market does not infact require sp to use and is quickly trainable at that. What you listed as content are actually various means to various ends. And New players are not denied those ends because there are other means of getting there.
There is nothing a carrier can do that 20 noobs cant do in lower sp ships. Nor is it impossible for new players to fly along side an existing carrier pilot to access the same content and achieve the same end.
SP adds more gameplay than it limits.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
2692
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Posted - 2015.09.12 17:45:34 -
[9] - Quote
40% if players level up their raven and then leave. So what happens when you remove the levelling?
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
2693
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Posted - 2015.09.12 21:12:25 -
[10] - Quote
The reliance on vet players is not really for sp. Its for game knowledge.
Removing the sp wouldn't do much to make noobs less dependent. It just makes them the feature of an ALOD article like rivr said.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
2694
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Posted - 2015.09.13 14:22:41 -
[11] - Quote
Dror wrote:Daichi Yamato wrote:The reliance on vet players is not really for sp. Its for game knowledge.
Removing the sp wouldn't do much to make noobs less dependent. How can a ship be learned if it's behind gating?
A vet can tell a noob a battleship is like a cruiser but sacrifices mobility and damage application for brute strength and projection. He can tell them what jobs they are good for and what jobs they are not good for. He can tell them what areas they are restricted from and what equipment they can use.
EFT (and hopefully soon ghost fitting) can tell a new player what they can fit on a battleship and what numbers it can push with such fittings and, with a vet, a new player can theory craft a good fitting for one purpose or another.
No its not perfect knowledge and it will still take some time for a new player to learn the 'feel' of a ship. But learning this way with a vet would be faster and less expensive than being able to fly the ship from day one and ignoring the help of vets.
Reliance on vets is not for SP.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
2695
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Posted - 2015.09.14 00:12:45 -
[12] - Quote
Dror wrote:
That's no exclusive for gating. It's possible without such.
How is relying on veteran fleets not relying on veterans for SP?
I didnt say it was exclusive. Youre trying to say noobs depend on vets for their sp. Which is wrong.
Your also saying a noob is better off flying big ships out the box, but theres a long history of ALODs involving bought characters that suggest it is not only more costly to learn the game this way but also more upsetting.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
2696
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Posted - 2015.09.14 09:24:24 -
[13] - Quote
Dror wrote:
"How is relying on veteran fleets not relying on veterans for SP?" With low SP, there are fewer ship, fitting, and effectiveness options. They aren't filling stations with items, because they don't have the skill points. They aren't banding together as freshies and infiltrating sov, because they don't have the effectiveness. How is that not relying on veterans for SP?
How is it relying on sp? You dont have to be literally flying along side a vet to receive knowledge, that knowledge can be passed on by a one day old alt. And buying equipment off the market does not require sp.
Freshies are infiltrating parts of sov and they have before. And WH's and fw and high sec.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
2696
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Posted - 2015.09.14 10:08:26 -
[14] - Quote
Fleets are flown without vets. Theres a list of killmails in this thread that show that.
And why are items sitting in station? Are you saying that because I can buy but cannot fit an invulnerable field II I am missing out on content despite the fact I can fit a meta version that does 80% of the job?
THATS your argument?
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
2696
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Posted - 2015.09.14 10:41:39 -
[15] - Quote
They are means to an end. And that end can be met with other means. There's nothing a carrier can do that 20noobs can do in various sub caps.
Some ships are more poweful than others, but thats progression. And progression itself is a gameplay for some. More than players leave because they cant fly a carrier on day one. So few are you compared to the players that enjoy progression and character building and so vague are your arguments for removing sp that I know sp is going to stay.
If you want to quit, go for it. Its not like 40% of the population are going to follow you.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
2696
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Posted - 2015.09.14 11:18:45 -
[16] - Quote
So now youre trying to say that everyone whos left between 2013 and now left because they couldnt fly a carrier from day one?
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
2700
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Posted - 2015.09.14 18:15:36 -
[17] - Quote
And the amount of players who left the game because they couldnt train fast enough/didnt want to train at all were?
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
2704
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Posted - 2015.09.14 21:59:27 -
[18] - Quote
And it loses subscribers like a bucket with no bottom if they dont constantly create new expansions.
Progression and character development, character investment, is an attractive gaming experience for many and it keeps people playing for the next goal and then the next and the next.
Thats why they added such mechanics to just about every genre in gaming.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
2706
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Posted - 2015.09.15 00:02:31 -
[19] - Quote
No, its been a trend with wow for years. It was more severe recently because they didnt release an expansion for longer than usual. Supposedly because they were focusing on other games.
And yes 40% of players who finish levelling up their raven leave.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
2706
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Posted - 2015.09.15 00:19:49 -
[20] - Quote
And apparently half the eve population again.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
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